Framus

Re: Framus

Postby Snap » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:54 am

And one more thing. I cannot avoid thinking that my Neubauer, besides the Fasan bridge, would be another mid '50s Framus make. maybe not, but who else made guitars like this?
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Re: Framus

Postby lacquercracks » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:42 pm

many of these bubenreuth guitars are so irritating alike. It can be because the makers had parts delivered from the same suppliers or even simpler that the smaller makers copied guitars from others that were "smart" or "bestsellers"

Heres what Hanika said about that :

ein Grund für die Ähnlichkeit vieler Instrumente verschiedener "Meister" könnte auch sein, dass es damals ganz normal war, ein Modell oder Teile davon, die gut gefielen oder sich gut verkauften, zu kopieren und nachzubauen. Modellschutz gab es damals nicht.

He apparantly was very inspired from hoyers/hopfs spezial de luxe and even used that modelname. He also was very inspired from Framuses black rose when he made a very similar model which also had the name of a nice flower : the orchidee. I think Your guitar could very well be an old neubauer inspired or copied from a popular good selling Framus model.

The small makers guitars probably sound better than the guitars from the bigger companies I think, simply because they are more "handmade"...
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Re: Framus

Postby lacquercracks » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:55 pm

Snap wrote:Hey Cracks, don't you think that the Tango, the Rhythmus and the President (what a model name, eh?) are still very Höfnerish designs?


Yes especially the noncut tango and president !

The catalogue is from 57 ? So the models in it are photographed earlier maybe as early as 1955. Up to then they were busy making their new factory . It seems to me that the models changed quite fast after 1957 catalogue models. Notice that there is not even one three dotted guitar on framus vintage afaik .

about the similarity of president You are very right. have a look at the 465 from russels höfner site pics below.

It seems that that (almost the same) model survived for at least ten years (as the hofner three dots)
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Re: Framus

Postby Snap » Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:44 am

It can be because the makers had parts delivered from the same suppliers or even simpler that the smaller makers copied guitars from others


No doubt about that.

I think Your guitar could very well be an old neubauer inspired or copied from a popular good selling Framus model.


I don't think this Neubauer is a Neubauer make after having a later Neubauer. They are totally different. It's more likely to be a rebrand from anyone else. Fasan, Framus or whatever. It's hard to tell if it's a Framus or not because after having a bunch of Framus in my hands and inspecting them all, the construction varied a lot along the years. Specially in the late '50s. But besides this, in my experience this guitar is much closer to the Framus style than a real Neubauer

The small makers guitars probably sound better than the guitars from the bigger companies I think, simply because they are more "handmade"...


That's the usual thing. Hand made guitars are more consistent. Factory guitars have less chances to be top performers.

The catalogue is from 57 ? So the models in it are photographed earlier maybe as early as 1955. Up to then they were busy making their new factory . It seems to me that the models changed quite fast after 1957 catalogue models. Notice that there is not even one three dotted guitar on framus vintage afaik .


No electrics in this catalog while some of the '57 UK Framus rebrand dealers are already showing guitars loaded with early Schallers. Not a Billy Lorento model introduced in 1957 for first time. Also the guitars don't have decals, only a few stamped logos. All that means pre '57. IMO this catalog is not later than 1956, perhaps '55. The guitar designs coincide with what some makers were building around 1955.

It seems to me that the models changed quite fast after 1957 catalogue models. Notice that there is not even one three dotted guitar on framus vintage afaik .


More than the models were the designs what varied, specially the construction details. As an example, the tonebars had an important evolution in Framus in only a few years until settled... for worse IMO. And yes, the early years are still quite blurry even for Dr. Christian Hoyer.
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Re: Framus

Postby Snap » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:15 am

lacquercracks wrote:
Snap wrote:How does it sounds, Cracks?


Ill tell You later. First impressions : medium loud, sweet and good tone at lower end but lacks power on treble strings from fret 5 and up. good - but not a topsounding guitar. has improved allready. will give full report later.


So it sounds like a Sorella. :lol: :lol: :lol:

When I started grabbing german guitars a few years ago I had no idea of brands and makers. Framuses where all over ebay.de, so I got a bunch of them. I liked the old holes better than the later F-holes, so I ended up with a nice pack of mid and late '50s Framus just by chance. In my experience, the budged laminates are more likely to be good performers than the solid pressed spruce top models. And at the same time, the earlier the better for the carved ones. That is, the Black Roses. Though I had an exceptional '58 Black Rose de Luxe I sold to a friend, all the other '57 and '58 Framus I had sounded more or less as you described. They are good with Schallers on board, In fact they can be killers as electrics due to the sweet and smooth tome, but nothing special as acoustics. All the pre-serials (pre '57) were better performers and the laminated ones were rivaling the Black roses with no problems. In fact, until I got a few good guitars from other makers, the three pre-57 Framus cheapos were my main acoustic archtops for a while sounding better, fuller and louder than my other Germans from different makers (Framus included). The first guitars I had that put them down were the Neubauer and the first Radiotone I got. Until that, my top three acoustics were three pre-serials Framus. A plain Atlantis, a Tango and specially another very early pre-logo one I still don't know the model name, probably a Rosita. That one was a real killer guitar. I gave it to a friend as a present and every time I go to his place and grab the guitar it still always surprises me. It sounds so good!
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Re: Framus

Postby Snap » Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:01 am

This is a Jörgensen catalog. Notice the logo decals (the Lorento has a black one used for some clear colored finishings) and a very early Schaller(?) pickguard. This model was introduced in 1953(?). It might be the earliest version of the Lorento model Framus ever made. One more reason to think the catalog above is earlier that this one.

By the way. Framus vintage insists that the Billy Lorento model was introduced in 1953. Something I really doubt. I think that was launched at least in 1955. I'm researching this.
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Re: Framus

Postby Snap » Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:07 am

This is a (verified) 1957 Aristone catalog page showing the UK Lorento export model version called Artist for Aristone. There was no other thinline model that Framus was building in those years. It was the first one. Again early Schallers in a '57 catalog. Again. I'm 100% sure the former catalog must be older.
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Re: Framus

Postby Snap » Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:37 am

Checked the files again. According to Framus, the Lorento model saw the light in 1953... might be correct but hard to believe. Schaller started in 1957 as a brand so these early pickups cannot be Schallers. The catalog above still shows Höfnerish models... as late as in 1956 or 1957? I really doubt it. Also no signs of a Lorento model or any other electric in the full catalog. So, IMO, it's a 1953 or 54 catalog. Still höfner thingys after the split and no trace of electrics, thinlines or Lorentos anywhere.
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Re: Framus

Postby Snap » Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:49 am

Hold on. This is the catalog no.8. When the facilities were still in Baiersdorf before moving to Bubenreuth in 1954 to the new factory. So it's a pre '54 catalog!
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Re: Framus

Postby lacquercracks » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:55 am

So pre 54. makes sense to me. and in the hometown of hanika from around the same years it makes very much sense that he copied the design ( three dotted heads included ) when he started out as a young man in the very same years. Ill have to ask him about that the next time I send him questions. Surely it must be like that. And the trip of the three dotted heads goes very natuarally from old höfner via framus to soli in a very natural way...nice historic detail .
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